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[Report] d0dleysvrz

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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby Scepticon » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:55 pm

President_KK wrote:Ok look.
D0dleysvrz came and asked me if we on the HMCSM would allow such a thing
the answer is yes! If there is a rouge director or inactive shareholders a company can buy back the person stock, at current value and leaving them a message why. It has and can be done if there is a good reason.
HMSEC rules for stocks say it can be done! if and when notice is given.

'Inactive shareholders' is fairly ambiguous, and in the context of HM 'inactive' would widely be interpreted as someone who doesn't actively play on the server. Was there a strict definition given at the time of the allocation of these shares, that would otherwise contradict this assumed meaning to also imply someone not actively involved in the company?

Additionally, although I'm presuming the shares were allocated during some sort of IPO on the HMCSM, if DOME has since been de-listed from the exchange like I think some earlier comments have said, then that means that these shares aren't under the purview of the exchange anymore, and so the premise of the following statement is invalid:

DR_StevenStrange wrote:DOME was at one point, and staff agreed long ago that any issues that came up regarding the stock market and shares wouldnt be handled by HM staff unless it was very extreme cases.


Looking past the issue that this 'agreement' isn't even valid, as it isn't in the rules, I fail to see how issues involving valuable assets (i.e. equities) are simply "not the staff's problem". The whole premise of existence of the staff is to ensure a fair and enjoyable experience on the server - not giving a fuck about alleged theft is the exact opposite of this. Additionally, the fact they're intangible assets doesn't mean anything - they're still classed as property and so therefore without prior permission of the holder of this property (~Doodle) then forcibly taking back the shares in return for a price set by the company is, per the HM rules, theft.

UnboxingGold wrote:he 100 percent has a right this is something real business do all the time

if we are to simulate a stock market on this server buying back shares from a shareholder is something that i believe all companies should be allowed to

What a lot of people aren't getting is that most of the time, these share buybacks occur in bulk when companies have excess cash lying around and want to return money to shareholders, driving up the price of the remaining outstanding stock due to its more limited supply.

95% of the time, these share buybacks occur on the open market, in a conventional way akin to how an individual would otherwise buy stock in the company. Buying back shares from an employee (departing or otherwise) has completely different rules.

This whole 'rogue director / performing poorly' shit is worthless unless a prior contract or agreement (which can be used as evidence) was agreed upon the allocation of the shares owned by Doodle by the way.

Everything that has been used as an argument for the buyback of ~Doodle's shares hinges on a prior, agreed upon contract or rule clause stating that DOME could forcibly buyback his shares at the discretion of DOME's directors. The burden is on DOME to prove this exists and that what they did was not against the HM rules, and likewise is on the staff to make sure that what was done was legal. "We agreed privately among ourselves that issues to do with shares aren't our problem" isn't a good enough reason for the staff to not give a fuck about this report.
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby President_KK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm

.
Last edited by President_KK on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby Captainadurica » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:08 pm

You can't really report him or ban him for stealing because technically he's just giving u the value back...
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby d0dleysvrz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm

Scepticon wrote:This whole 'rogue director / performing poorly' shit is worthless unless a prior contract or agreement (which can be used as evidence) was agreed upon the allocation of the shares owned by Doodle by the way.

Everything that has been used as an argument for the buyback of ~Doodle's shares hinges on a prior, agreed upon contract or rule clause stating that DOME could forcibly buyback his shares at the discretion of DOME's directors. The burden is on DOME to prove this exists and that what they did was not against the HM rules, and likewise is on the staff to make sure that what was done was legal. "We agreed privately among ourselves that issues to do with shares aren't our problem" isn't a good enough reason for the staff to not give a fuck about this report.


Ok so to clear up a few of the things that went unnoticed in this topic.

DOME was initially listed on the stock market via the HMCSM, operating under their rulesets with them making sure these rules were lived up to. As strange said, at this time these things would not fall under staff unless they were extreme upon which the HMCSM would investigate the matter.

Then indeed we delisted from their market, technically no longer under their ruleset. But seeing as nothing changed to the way we would work with the shares they would technically still apply the same rules as we had when we listed ourselves.

Now at this time we did not rewrite rules to make sure we had them ourselves as shareholders were always aware how the system would work due to the fact that most of our shareholders got into our company before we delisted and as such there was no need to put up the rules again.

Now i see that i shouldve just like the ten pages of terms and conditions we were forced to put up a year ago for simply hiring us to do a build. This all because a small portion of people find it either neccesary or amusing to point us on the rules that we don’t have thus abusing everything that we did, with the reason that “it isn’t in our rules”.

The fact that i have to make a full lawfull contract “to prove” here that i can buyback is outmost ridicilous as we’ve done it for years and by all means have doodle’s consent via Discord as shown earlier AND pres from the HMCSM pointing out that we did it before without any troubles.

I think we need to ask ourselves if it’s really neccesary to put up 100 lines of text explaining what someone can and cannot do to just make sure nobody makes these kind of reports where we are in an extremely grey area. It simply goes too far for me to do that for something i consider as a relaxation during my off-time, but it seems like yet again i have to force people to read pages of text in order to make sure i don’t get reported for the simplest of actions.

~Doodle wrote:
UnboxingGold wrote:
Egor wrote:Unless the Dome rules specifically say that he can do that, he has no right. Just my opinion.

For professional opinion ask Amoni.


he 100 percent has a right this is something real business do all the time

if we are to simulate a stock market on this server buying back shares from a shareholder is something that i believe all companies should be allowed to

if not then we gotta just ban the stock market which i wouldn't think would be a good idea

maybe in the future had a regulations and rules in place to govern how a buy back would take place

this is something where it needs to have all aspects to stocks or nothing at all


just my 2 cents


The problem is DOME has no rule of information stating they do buybacks forcefully. Furthermore, since there is nothing saying they can in the discord, I've asked staff and they've said it's not legal to take someone else's property, hence the report. It's confusing but let's wait for a staff desicion.

I'm liking the discussions guys!


To take back upon this message, no we do not have rules because all of our shareholders (very much including you) were aware we did force buybacks from time to time.

Also to come back to the point, you gave me consent via Discord on the fact that we were taking them back so i don’t see how a report like this is even valid while you told us it was OK. You’re trying to make a point just to harass me and DOME for relieving you from your position.

(Let’s also not forget the troll region you’re now holding against my city as well, simply due to the fact you no longer have anything to do with us, while you were aware it was city expansion land.) but that’s a topic for another day.

Now seeing from strange’s comment this is not a staff action so i’m gonna leave this report for what it is.

If they do decide to further investigate you know where to find me and i’ll be happy to co-operate.
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby d0dleysvrz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:24 pm

Captainadurica wrote:You can't really report him or ban him for stealing because technically he's just giving u the value back...


Also this..
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby d0dleysvrz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:36 pm

~Doodle wrote:
UnboxingGold wrote:
Egor wrote:Unless the Dome rules specifically say that he can do that, he has no right. Just my opinion.

For professional opinion ask Amoni.


he 100 percent has a right this is something real business do all the time

if we are to simulate a stock market on this server buying back shares from a shareholder is something that i believe all companies should be allowed to

if not then we gotta just ban the stock market which i wouldn't think would be a good idea

maybe in the future had a regulations and rules in place to govern how a buy back would take place

this is something where it needs to have all aspects to stocks or nothing at all


just my 2 cents


The problem is DOME has no rule of information stating they do buybacks forcefully. Furthermore, since there is nothing saying they can in the discord, I've asked staff and they've said it's not legal to take someone else's property, hence the report. It's confusing but let's wait for a staff desicion.

I'm liking the discussions guys!


Now i have one more thing to say and that is that you really are speaking against your own arguments.

The HM rules state nothing about shares or force buying back of property and so a report cannot be made for this as the rule is simply not present.

That’s how it works right doodle?

Now i’ve defended myself as i see neccesary and i have nothing more to add. As said, staff will handle this as they see fit (or they wont) and i can provide additional comments via them.
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby ~Doodle » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:42 pm

Hi there.

I am just going to address a few comments and points that have been made. I will work chronologically.

ViHQ wrote:
~Arctic wrote:u can buy back shares irl

Pretty sure they need to make an offer on it, it's quite literally his property.

ViHQ wrote:
~Bloom wrote:If your a rogue director or performing poorly companies can force you to sell shares.

That has to be explicitly stated with detailed guidelines for them to be able to do that, they must define what counts as preforming poorly.

ViHQ is absolutely correct in the case. There is nothing saying DOME can buyback shares at any time. I've been in DOME for probably a year or so working in management, so I think I'd know.



DR_StevenStrange wrote:
~Doodle wrote:
President_KK wrote:Ok look.
D0dleysvrz came and asked me if we on the HMCSM would allow such a thing
the answer is yes! If there is a rouge director or inactive shareholders a company can buy back the person stock, at current value and leaving them a message why. It has and can be done if there is a good reason.
HMSEC rules for stocks say it can be done! if and when notice is given.

DOME is not part of the HMCSM...

DOME was at one point, and staff agreed long ago that any issues that came up regarding the stock market and shares wouldnt be handled by HM staff unless it was very extreme cases.

Firstly, this is wrong in many ways. I am reporting a player for breaking a server rule in hope that staff will review it. You're telling me that infact doing your job isn't actually yours to do because it involves shares? If staff don't handle these issues, who does. Who do I go to who has the power to act upon this, who enforces the server rules and who's job it is to do. Staff! Scep summarised this very well:

Scepticon wrote:
DR_StevenStrange wrote:DOME was at one point, and staff agreed long ago that any issues that came up regarding the stock market and shares wouldnt be handled by HM staff unless it was very extreme cases.

Looking past the issue that this 'agreement' isn't even valid, as it isn't in the rules, I fail to see how issues involving valuable assets (i.e. equities) are simply "not the staff's problem". The whole premise of existence of the staff is to ensure a fair and enjoyable experience on the server - not giving a fuck about alleged theft is the exact opposite of this. Additionally, the fact they're intangible assets doesn't mean anything - they're still classed as property and so therefore without prior permission of the holder of this property (~Doodle) then forcibly taking back the shares in return for a price set by the company is, per the HM rules, theft.

This is a staff issue and is breaking server rules. Staff enforces that, not some 3rd party you seem to refer to. Furthermore, DOME has no information stating they follow HMCSM rules in their information open to public, this invalidates the argument.



Scepticon wrote:
President_KK wrote:Ok look.
D0dleysvrz came and asked me if we on the HMCSM would allow such a thing
the answer is yes! If there is a rouge director or inactive shareholders a company can buy back the person stock, at current value and leaving them a message why. It has and can be done if there is a good reason.
HMSEC rules for stocks say it can be done! if and when notice is given.

'Inactive shareholders' is fairly ambiguous, and in the context of HM 'inactive' would widely be interpreted as someone who doesn't actively play on the server. Was there a strict definition given at the time of the allocation of these shares, that would otherwise contradict this assumed meaning to also imply someone not actively involved in the company?

Additionally, although I'm presuming the shares were allocated during some sort of IPO on the HMCSM, if DOME has since been de-listed from the exchange like I think some earlier comments have said, then that means that these shares aren't under the purview of the exchange anymore, and so the premise of the following statement is invalid:


I believe Scepticon has also answered this argument very well. There are no specifications to what is allowed and not on the DOME discord, so saying we actually have this rule but never mentioning to to anyone publicly, in senior management or in any other way until after this is brought up, doesn't then make it exist before. It's similar to adding your own rules to try an ban someone when the offence was committed before the rule existed.

I would also like to highlight this:

Scepticon wrote:Everything that has been used as an argument for the buyback of ~Doodle's shares hinges on a prior, agreed upon contract or rule clause stating that DOME could forcibly buyback his shares at the discretion of DOME's directors. The burden is on DOME to prove this exists and that what they did was not against the HM rules, and likewise is on the staff to make sure that what was done was legal. "We agreed privately among ourselves that issues to do with shares aren't our problem" isn't a good enough reason for the staff to not give a fuck about this report.

This has happened to a degree. When you buy shares, you follow the rules on the discord's information channel. Nothing in the channel states buybacks of shares at any time are a thing. Please provide evidence supporting an agreement between shareholders and DOME Inc. stating buybacks are allowed, before this event happened.



d0dleysvrz wrote:Ok so to clear up a few of the things that went unnoticed in this topic.

DOME was initially listed on the stock market via the HMCSM, operating under their rulesets with them making sure these rules were lived up to. As strange said, at this time these things would not fall under staff unless they were extreme upon which the HMCSM would investigate the matter.

Then indeed we delisted from their market, technically no longer under their ruleset. But seeing as nothing changed to the way we would work with the shares they would technically still apply the same rules as we had when we listed ourselves.

Now at this time we did not rewrite rules to make sure we had them ourselves as shareholders were always aware how the system would work due to the fact that most of our shareholders got into our company before we delisted and as such there was no need to put up the rules again.

Everything you just said here has not been proven. Even I wasn't aware you were running by HMCSM rules given your attitude towards them at the time... Since there is no mention of this at the time I purchased my shares, it is irrelevant. You have nothing stating DOME uses HMCSM rules for their shares management. This argument will need to be proven before it should even be considered as a fact or solid piece of evidence.



d0dleysvrz wrote:Now i see that i shouldve just like the ten pages of terms and conditions we were forced to put up a year ago for simply hiring us to do a build. This all because a small portion of people find it either neccesary or amusing to point us on the rules that we don’t have thus abusing everything that we did, with the reason that “it isn’t in our rules”.

Correct. You have just admitted you have not actually posted an rules, regulations or terms upon buying shares and becoming a shareholder. This backs up every point that's been made about you claiming DOME follows HMCSM rules.



d0dleysvrz wrote:The fact that i have to make a full lawfull contract “to prove” here that i can buyback is outmost ridicilous as we’ve done it for years and by all means have doodle’s consent via Discord as shown earlier AND pres from the HMCSM pointing out that we did it before without any troubles.

To say me saying you better refund me the full amount if you do, has to be stretched from one side of the forum to another to be classed as consent. Given in the same conversation I also said that it was illegal and you couldn't do that, I guess that's also proof I didn't consent to you yoinking me shares.



d0dleysvrz wrote:I think we need to ask ourselves if it’s really necessary to put up 100 lines of text explaining what someone can and cannot do to just make sure nobody makes these kind of reports where we are in an extremely grey area. It simply goes too far for me to do that for something i consider as a relaxation during my off-time, but it seems like yet again i have to force people to read pages of text in order to make sure i don’t get reported for the simplest of actions.

It certainly is when you have stolen over 100k of my property. This is far from an extremely grey area, the rules have clearly stated to ask a staff member for confirmation if you don't know, and the verdict is you cannot forcefully take someone else's property. This is hardly an extremely grey area.



d0dleysvrz wrote:To take back upon this message, no we do not have rules because all of our shareholders (very much including you) were aware we did force buybacks from time to time.

I was not aware and just because all your shareholders know something, doesn't make it an official rule until it is posted publicly. That's like banning someone for a rule that staff haven't mentioned in the rules and then suddenly added once it happened.



d0dleysvrz wrote:Also to come back to the point, you gave me consent via Discord on the fact that we were taking them back so i don’t see how a report like this is even valid while you told us it was OK. You’re trying to make a point just to harass me and DOME for relieving you from your position.

As a said earlier:

~Doodle wrote:To say me saying you better refund me the full amount if you do, has to be stretched from one side of the forum to another to be classed as consent. Given in the same conversation I also said that it was illegal and you couldn't do that, I guess that's also proof I didn't consent to you yoinking me shares.




d0dleysvrz wrote:(Let’s also not forget the troll region you’re now holding against my city as well, simply due to the fact you no longer have anything to do with us, while you were aware it was city expansion land.) but that’s a topic for another day.

I have owned a region outside DOME for more than 6 months in hope to sell it back to gov to let the city expand. Given I am not part of DOME and how you talked to me in DM's, I have reconsidered that and I now have my own personal plans for it. If you want to call it a troll region, by all means do, but it has not been deliberately created to stop the city from expanding when it was there before DOME.

Thank you and I think another staff response is needed.
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby d0dleysvrz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 pm

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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby ~Doodle » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:30 pm

d0dleysvrz wrote:Image


You'll find that it is actually something like this:

Image

and then

Image

You seem to think I'm saying taking my shares is not an issue, I can tell you now, it is.
You've removed context and are basing your entire credibility off something I said that you have interprated differently to how the conversation went. You said you're buying my shares, I said I'm well aware. You said you have more to do today, I say that's not an issue. How is that consent?
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Re: [Report] d0dleysvrz

Postby Lin » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:03 pm

If Strange said it's not a staff issuez then who are you to determine otherwise Doodle. You are not staff, so...
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